"}Were Achilles and Patroklos Lovers? - Tales of Times Forgotten
The Athenian philosopher Plato (lived c. 429 \u2013 c. 347 BCE) has the speaker Phaidros in his dialogue\u00a0The Symposion\u00a0say that Achilles and Patroklos were lovers. Contrary to Aischylos, however, Phaidros insists that Achilles was the eromenos and Patroklos was the erastes. Here is what Phaidros says,\u00a0as translated by Benjamin Jowett:
\u201cVery different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroklos\u2014his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroklos was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aischylos has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). And greatly as the gods honour the virtue of love, still the return of love on the part of the beloved to the lover is more admired and valued and rewarded by them, for the lover is more divine; because he is inspired by God.\u201d
very happy to learn that the ancient Greeks also had seme-uke discourse
Not everyone in classical Athens, however, agreed with the view that Achilles and Patroklos were lovers. Notably, the writer Xenophon (lived c. 430 \u2013 354 BCE) wrote a response to Plato\u2019s\u00a0Symposion\u00a0in which he makes the speaker Socrates specifically argue that Achilles and Patroklos were\u00a0not\u00a0lovers. Here is what Xenophon portrays Socrates as saying, as translated by Hugh Tredennick:
\u201cBesides, Nikeratos, Homer has made Achilles exact his famous vengeance for Patroklos not because Patroklos was his lover, but because he was his friend and was killed. Also, Orestes and Pylades, and Theseus and Peirithous, and many others among the greatest heroes are celebrated in song for having jointly performed the greatest and noblest exploits, not because they slept together, but out of mutual admiration.\u201d
I know some people hate comparing ancient writing to modern fandom but come on
The Athenian orator Aischines (lived 389 \u2013 314 BCE) says in his oration\u00a0Against Timarchos\u00a0that, although Homer does not explicitly describe Achilles and Patroklos as lovers in the\u00a0Iliad, the poet clearly knew and intended for educated audiences to understand that they were lovers. Aischines declares, as translated by Konstantinos Kapparis:
\u201cFirst I will talk about Homer, whom we count among the oldest and wisest poets. Although he has mentioned Achilles and Patroklos many times, he hides their love and the name of their relationship because he believes that the abundance of their affection will make this clear to the educated members of the audience.\u201d
I’m crying this is like one to one what modern ship discourse is like
The fact that Aischines could treat it as axiomatic that Achilles and Patroklos were in a homosexual relationship in a speech that was meant to be delivered in front of an Athenian jury clearly demonstrates that, by the time Aischines was writing in the late fourth century BCE, this must have been a fairly widely accepted interpretation.
excuse me WHAT
the seme/uke discourse is eternal and inescapable. yaoi forever