The Athenian philosopher Plato (lived c. 429 – c. 347 BCE) has the speaker Phaidros in his dialogue The Symposion say that Achilles and Patroklos were lovers. Contrary to Aischylos, however, Phaidros insists that Achilles was the eromenos and Patroklos was the erastes. Here is what Phaidros says, as translated by Benjamin Jowett:
“Very different was the reward of the true love of Achilles towards his lover Patroklos—his lover and not his love (the notion that Patroklos was the beloved one is a foolish error into which Aischylos has fallen, for Achilles was surely the fairer of the two, fairer also than all the other heroes; and, as Homer informs us, he was still beardless, and younger far). And greatly as the gods honour the virtue of love, still the return of love on the part of the beloved to the lover is more admired and valued and rewarded by them, for the lover is more divine; because he is inspired by God.”
very happy to learn that the ancient Greeks also had seme-uke discourse
Not everyone in classical Athens, however, agreed with the view that Achilles and Patroklos were lovers. Notably, the writer Xenophon (lived c. 430 – 354 BCE) wrote a response to Plato’s Symposion in which he makes the speaker Socrates specifically argue that Achilles and Patroklos were not lovers. Here is what Xenophon portrays Socrates as saying, as translated by Hugh Tredennick:
“Besides, Nikeratos, Homer has made Achilles exact his famous vengeance for Patroklos not because Patroklos was his lover, but because he was his friend and was killed. Also, Orestes and Pylades, and Theseus and Peirithous, and many others among the greatest heroes are celebrated in song for having jointly performed the greatest and noblest exploits, not because they slept together, but out of mutual admiration.”
I know some people hate comparing ancient writing to modern fandom but come on
The Athenian orator Aischines (lived 389 – 314 BCE) says in his oration Against Timarchos that, although Homer does not explicitly describe Achilles and Patroklos as lovers in the Iliad, the poet clearly knew and intended for educated audiences to understand that they were lovers. Aischines declares, as translated by Konstantinos Kapparis:
“First I will talk about Homer, whom we count among the oldest and wisest poets. Although he has mentioned Achilles and Patroklos many times, he hides their love and the name of their relationship because he believes that the abundance of their affection will make this clear to the educated members of the audience.”
I’m crying this is like one to one what modern ship discourse is like
The fact that Aischines could treat it as axiomatic that Achilles and Patroklos were in a homosexual relationship in a speech that was meant to be delivered in front of an Athenian jury clearly demonstrates that, by the time Aischines was writing in the late fourth century BCE, this must have been a fairly widely accepted interpretation.
excuse me WHAT
the seme/uke discourse is eternal and inescapable. yaoi forever
«Well actually I was raised Catholic and went to Catholic school and» procede to say the most inaccurate history and teaching of Catholicism
“Goes through a formal process of Catholic intellectual formation and comes out with the most random-ass take on it you’ve ever heard” is pretty authentically Catholic though
My take on both carbon emissions and AI alignment is it would take a real Dune-ass jihad to rearrange society in a way it would be possible to align incentives against those, if the society in question had not already achieved total worldwide hegemony at that point it would fall to one that did not undergo this process, and no existing or potentially emergent society is positioned to achieve total worldwide hegemony within relevant timeframes.
Okay, went to put the last of the leaves on Blueberry Hill but got sidetracked by digging drainage ditches and realized there’s a part that really deserves another smashing pass, so it’ll be done tomorrow. Or maybe after it next rains, so the leaves I dropped today can paste together all the unconsolidated debris so it’s not such a back-killing nightmare to balance on.
Been contemplating my mortality lately but with the anxiety-zeroing I have no fear of death and if I start to worry about physical decay I remind myself that I have direct experience of motor and mental collapse and it’s not really that bad, but the finitude of it all still bugs me – the idea that I might only have as much more life experience ahead of me as I already do behind is devastating, even if the fact that’s because it will be followed by eternal oblivion is just a footnote.
So, I’m basically having a very Zen midlife crisis right now.
The annoying thing is I already independently determined to start spending more money on nice things and cultivating a social crowd two decades my junior after the personality change, but now no one’s gonna believe me.
Also if you hadn’t heard, TikTok has discovered a way to hotwire any Kia or Hyundai with just a screwdriver and a USB cord, so that’s going about how you’d expect
Which means 12-year-old demons have gamified the “challenge” of joyriding your car
Also if you hadn’t heard, TikTok has discovered a way to hotwire any Kia or Hyundai with just a screwdriver and a USB cord, so that’s going about how you’d expect
Over the last decade have looked back at the whole ‘90s “kids having kids!” freakout, daytime talk and all, how it was kind of framed (condoms in schools!) as if it was about young couples, enabled by a decadently permissive culture, fucking instead of Waiting For Marriage. But it was really about The 70s having worked their way through the culture so thoroughly that teenage working class girls everywhere were getting knocked up by older men.
Some of which might have been fucking them on an American Beauty neighborhood dad or teacher-groomer basis, but a lot of which was really more of a Dazed and Confused thing – blue-collar men graduate high school but don’t leave town and stay in the same automobile/intoxication-based social scene and as they grow older the girls stay the same age.
Been contemplating my mortality lately but with the anxiety-zeroing I have no fear of death and if I start to worry about physical decay I remind myself that I have direct experience of motor and mental collapse and it’s not really that bad, but the finitude of it all still bugs me – the idea that I might only have as much more life experience ahead of me as I already do behind is devastating, even if the fact that’s because it will be followed by eternal oblivion is just a footnote.
So, I’m basically having a very Zen midlife crisis right now.
